Aluminum vs Chromoly

[Netdemon01]

I mean, let's face it, engineers for mass-produced items these days don't have as much say in things as the bean-counters upstairs.

Please let me know where you get this type of information cause it sounds like you pulled it out of your ass . Companies don't pay engineers $50,000-$100,000 a year to not let them have a say in things.

If the focus was truly on progressing the technology to the extent that was seen in 1970, we would have a lot better machines than we do today.

You don't understand the trend of technology. The increase is not linear from year to year. Instead of linear, it is more along the lines of something with limits, like looking at a graph of the square root of 9. It increases quickly at first but levels off to the horizontal limit of 1. There is a limit to how much dirt bikes can improve and each manufacturer attempts to hit that limit. This is why the bikes are becoming more and more similar.

[gordy]

like looking at a graph of the square root of 9. It increases quickly at first but levels off to the horizontal limit of 1.

huh? wouldnt a graph of the square root of 9 be straight lines at -3 and 3?

[rgaede]

technically that graph wouldn't exist in the real world at any negative value.

And you can make a strong light frame out of steel, the KTM is an example of this.

[Wilmx829]

Ktm's break the most, too.

[dearnhardtfan7]

you ever notice that there are exponentially fewer ktms outdoors than any other brand? There is a reason for that. The KTM frame is so rigid that it really takes a toll on the rider outdoors. That is great for indoors on a smoother track but outdoors you need a frame and suspension that will do more to soak up the bumps.

[Netdemon01]

like looking at a graph of the square root of 9. It increases quickly at first but levels off to the horizontal limit of 1.

huh? wouldnt a graph of the square root of 9 be straight lines at -3 and 3?

Hah, I used square root of 9 as a starting point in excel spreadsheet to make my graph. Really what I meant, was just a square root of 'x' graph. If you take sqrt(9) and keep taking the square root its limit is 1. Starting with sqrt(9) = 3. sqrt(3) = 1.732... sqrt(1.732...) = ect ect ect.... Sorry for the confusion!

[Wilmx829]

you ever notice that there are exponentially fewer ktms outdoors than any other brand? There is a reason for that. The KTM frame is so rigid that it really takes a toll on the rider outdoors. That is great for indoors on a smoother track but outdoors you need a frame and suspension that will do more to soak up the bumps.

Well, idk, in most enduros I go to, and on gncc, all I see is ktm's.

[JETZcorp]

Please let me know where you get this type of information cause it sounds like you pulled it out of your ass . Companies don't pay engineers $50,000-$100,000 a year to not let them have a say in things.

I got that from part of the text in that link I gave. It's a long, long read so it's probably going to take a while to find that bit.

chromoly is a much heavier, rigid metal, where as aluminium is a lighter and more flexible metal. As chromo would be a bitch to weld and mass produce, bike prices would be much higher due to the added labour it takes to produce a chromo frame. I also wouldn't be suprised if chromo was a more expensive material.

It's entertaining to read things like this, because it's worded as though it wasn't the standard material for frames. As for cost, modern bikes are actually significantly more expensive than even the cream-of-the-crop from the days of olde. Now, I'm not going to try and attribute this entirely to the frame, because that would be stupid. But anyway, let's compare some bikes and count some beans.

In 1978 (as well as '79 and '80) Husqvarna made their 390, which is one of the five greatest motorcycles ever made in my opinion. Then again, I spent a good deal of my childhood being ridden around on a 1979 390CR, so I'm a bit biased. Anyway, that bike had an MSRP of $1995 new off the show-room floor. One thing to appreciate is that in 1978, owning a Husky was like a more mild version of owning a Lamborghini. It is a hand-crafted precision machine made by a small group of engineers who are used to getting things done and done right, so don't think I'm taking a bargain-bin-bike as my example. When Cycle Guide wrote their test article, they chose the heading, "Not super-trick, super-fancy or super-pretty, just super-good—and super expensive." Adjusted for inflation, today that pricetag translates to a bit North of $6500. This bike rode in the biggest, baddest class in motocross, so we'll compare it to today's big-bad class, the 450F. The Kawasaki KX450 will set you back about $7500, and a YZ450F clocks in at the same. So, even adjusting for inflation, we can see that a and-built bike that has a chromoly frame, and handlebars is cheaper than a mass-produced, aluminum-framed machine. So maybe I went through a lot of work to show something that's not really all that important, but hey, I had fun.

Sources:

1978 Husky 390CR Test (read it all and bask in its glory!)
http://motorbikearchives.com/Bike-Tests ... -1978.html

Kawasaki KX450F
http://www.kawasaki.com/products/produc ... 309&scid=8

Yamaha YZ450F
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/produ ... rview.aspx

[zane]

hmm you do have a point, but. . . . .

Considering the 390 is a two stroke, then a reason why the 450f's are more expensive is probably because they are 4 strokes. There is much more labour and technical work when building a purpose built 4 stroke motocross engine, due to the large amount of moving parts.

Whereas a two stroke is much easier to build compared to a four stroke, so a big factor of the pricing is probably due to the intensive labour of building the motor.

so ill try and be flexible here, compare the husky to a modern 250 two stroke, yes its being phased out, but for many years and to this day its has run the main class and is still frequently used my many of our top pro's today.

I tried finding the price of an 09 yz 250 and it's retails for $6449 us.

Yes I know its not a big bore but most big bores are not being produced anymore, but even by comparing 450f's to 250's, its not exactly the frame build that can determine the price.

[Netdemon01]

In 1978 (as well as '79 and '80) Husqvarna made their 390, which is one of the five greatest motorcycles ever made in my opinion. Then again, I spent a good deal of my childhood being ridden around on a 1979 390CR, so I'm a bit biased. Anyway, that bike had an MSRP of $1995 new off the show-room floor. One thing to appreciate is that in 1978, owning a Husky was like a more mild version of owning a Lamborghini. It is a hand-crafted precision machine made by a small group of engineers who are used to getting things done and done right, so don't think I'm taking a bargain-bin-bike as my example. When Cycle Guide wrote their test article, they chose the heading, "Not super-trick, super-fancy or super-pretty, just super-good—and super expensive." Adjusted for inflation, today that pricetag translates to a bit North of $6500. This bike rode in the biggest, baddest class in motocross, so we'll compare it to today's big-bad class, the 450F. The Kawasaki KX450 will set you back about $7500, and a YZ450F clocks in at the same. So, even adjusting for inflation, we can see that a and-built bike that has a chromoly frame, and handlebars is cheaper than a mass-produced, aluminum-framed machine. So maybe I went through a lot of work to show something that's not really all that important, but hey, I had fun.

Does that take into account the rising cost of metal? Rising costs of worker's wages? Gasoline averaged 63 cents a gallon back in 1978. The average yearly income was $17,000. The average cost of a new house was $54,800! For the cost of a dirtbike to rise $1000 in 34 years is not bad at all when you compare how much the cost of an automobile has jumped, or houses.

How can you explain my 1999 YZ400F having an MSRP of $5799.00 brand new back in 99? Just in the past 10 years the cost of a four strike has nearly jumped $2000!! Don't forget supply and demand my friend.

[JETZcorp]

Well, as I noted, I did account for inflation. If you want to take that out of the equation, then we can say the price difference between a 390 and 450F is $5,500 - which is a ridiculous change. As for the cheapness of the '99 YZF, I would say that is caused by the inflation we've seen in the last ten years. I'm assuming you didn't already adjust the price for this (the term MSRP). Plugging the numbers into the inflation calculator, we find that the $5799 back then is equivalent to $7507.83 today, which means the big-four-stroke price hasn't risen by any important amount. Incidentally, I think the 400F used a steel (Chromoly) frame, so that's a really good test to show that the price hasn't risen with the introduction of aluminum.

Science!

[jlv]

chromoly is a much heavier, rigid metal, where as aluminium is a lighter and more flexible metal. As chromo would be a bitch to weld and mass produce, bike prices would be much higher due to the added labour it takes to produce a chromo frame. I also wouldn't be suprised if chromo was a more expensive material.

It's entertaining to read things like this, because it's worded as though it wasn't the standard material for frames. As for cost, modern bikes are actually significantly more expensive than even the cream-of-the-crop from the days of olde. Now, I'm not going to try and attribute this entirely to the frame, because that would be stupid. But anyway, let's compare some bikes and count some beans.

What you're missing is chromoly is only harder to work with for large diameter thin walled tubing. For small diameter thick walled tubing like that old husky used, chromoly isn't that hard to weld.

[JETZcorp]

Exactly. So, I think we can safely say that aluminum replaced steel to accommodate the new frame geometry, rather than something the other way about. I'll continue to prefer the Chromoly-framed bikes because I say they look better.

[yomo]

I'll continue to prefer the Chromoly-framed bikes because I say they look better.

You being the complete unbiased person you are towards New vs Old bikes

[JETZcorp]